Is there something rotten in the world of mass produced bicycles?

Having a chat to "you know who" this morn and he said in the past month
& half, 15 different people have brought in mass produced "name" bikes
to him for correction fitting, bikes they have bought from the LBS's
around Melb. and new purchases had for about a month and all complain
"I cant ride this bike- it hurts too much!".

is it the LBS's who have no idea about fit, is it the production bikes
that are being churned out and don't deliver value/pain free riding for
hard earned bucks...

I know my physiology dictates I need a custom. BUT this surely isnt the
case for the bulk of riders OR IS IT.?

I ask this in good faith as it concerns me that riders are getting
sore, with debilitating aches and pains which affect concentration and
thus safety.

The comment was made that some of these people were told by their LBS's
when they complained of sore backs and necks and hands - "You are
supposed to get sore when you ride a bike, its normal!!!)...sheesh

The value for money for mass produced bikes arguments I've heard, but
here we are talking about not just the lower priced offerings in the
market, but the "so-called" top end things, . These are $8-10,000+
bikes, these bikes just dont cut it either and the owners are saying to
"you know who", 'I want a new frame, can we use use the running gear and
salvage something from all this?'. so effectively they are tossing a
piece of carbon or design marvel away that is around 60-70% or more of
their original purchase outlay.

I'm sure this isnt confined to Melb. If we ask the other bike fitters
around the traps across Aus. (or the world, and there arnt too many,but
enough) will they too have the same experience?.

This is not a push for any particular approach other than ,I hope,
manufacturers and LBS's can produce/sell bikes with strict guidlines of
safety first , comfort, no pain and no long term injury potential from
bad fit, before greedy profit taking from mass assembly & sly
marketing.

In this last decade there has been "mysterious" gradual move away from
the classic design of relaxed larger frames to more smaller, compact
frames , with upright forward seating positions and less relaxed
angles. This has no doubt reduced production costs and maximised
profit, It has also dictated that bikes are less suitable for the bulk
of the market IMHO.
The emphasis on lightness too has added to this, so a smaller size
offering is a nice way of saying to a bigger rider, you can get up
hills easier- not . "lose that gut and the excess 15kgs you have".

I see many riders on the road on "little"bikes, that look very
uncomfortable ( and probably are)...

discussion...anyone...anyone
it takes guts to admit your new purchase you have always dreamed about
doesnt cut the mustard...so let us know...is there a case here?

Feedback for the manufacturers, are you one of these souls who has
second thoughts about your new purchase?...


--
rooman

On Apr 17, 6:53 pm, rooman rooman.2p6...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com wrote:
Having a chat to "you know who" this morn and he said in the past month
& half, 15 different people have brought in mass produced "name" bikes
to him for correction fitting, bikes they have bought from the LBS's
around Melb. and new purchases had for about a month and all complain
"I cant ride this bike- it hurts too much!".

is it the LBS's who have no idea about fit, is it the production bikes
that are being churned out and don't deliver value/pain free riding for
hard earned bucks...

I know my physiology dictates I need a custom. BUT this surely isnt the
case for the bulk of riders OR IS IT.?

I ask this in good faith as it concerns me that riders are getting
sore, with debilitating aches and pains which affect concentration and
thus safety.

The comment was made that some of these people were told by their LBS's
when they complained of sore backs and necks and hands - "You are
supposed to get sore when you ride a bike, its normal!!!)...sheesh

The value for money for mass produced bikes arguments I've heard, but
here we are talking about not just the lower priced offerings in the
market, but the "so-called" top end things, . These are $8-10,000+
bikes, these bikes just dont cut it either and the owners are saying to
"you know who", 'I want a new frame, can we use use the running gear and
salvage something from all this?'. so effectively they are tossing a
piece of carbon or design marvel away that is around 60-70% or more of
their original purchase outlay.

I'm sure this isnt confined to Melb. If we ask the other bike fitters
around the traps across Aus. (or the world, and there arnt too many,but
enough) will they too have the same experience?.

This is not a push for any particular approach other than ,I hope,
manufacturers and LBS's can produce/sell bikes with strict guidlines of
safety first , comfort, no pain and no long term injury potential from
bad fit, before greedy profit taking from mass assembly & sly
marketing.

In this last decade there has been "mysterious" gradual move away from
the classic design of relaxed larger frames to more smaller, compact
frames , with upright forward seating positions and less relaxed
angles. This has no doubt reduced production costs and maximised
profit, It has also dictated that bikes are less suitable for the bulk
of the market IMHO.
The emphasis on lightness too has added to this, so a smaller size
offering is a nice way of saying to a bigger rider, you can get up
hills easier- not . "lose that gut and the excess 15kgs you have".

I see many riders on the road on "little"bikes, that look very
uncomfortable ( and probably are)...

discussion...anyone...anyone
it takes guts to admit your new purchase you have always dreamed about
doesnt cut the mustard...so let us know...is there a case here?

Feedback for the manufacturers, are you one of these souls who has
second thoughts about your new purchase?...

--
rooman


I've always found that the frame size and configuration are not much
of a problem. Never felt the need for custom. But I'm probably about
the standard size they had in mind when they made the larger size
bike. I've learned to adjust everything myself until it feels right.

Maybe it is better to give out an adjustment set of hints with the
bike? I see lots of people in strange riding positions, and if you
don't know any better....

I ride a custom and the comfort is worlds away from my original bike,
there is just no comparison, also the material is different.

My current bike I can ride, ride, ride, ride and ride and I feel fine
day after day, if I was to do that on my old bike I would have ALL
sorts of problems.

The bike just did not fit correctly it was ok and ride-able, but did
not fit me like a glove, like my current bike.

I am not sure you can blame the LBS toooo much with this, I mean what
can they do just offer custom made bikes that no one can afford ? The
bike shop I pruchased from were more than happy for me to come back as
many times as I wanted to get my ride comfort feel as best they could,
I think that is all they can do given the bikes they sell. But the
over-riding factor is always going to be get the bikes out the door,
they are businesses.

But that "it is supposed to hurt" comment is pretty poor, I would be
demanding some safisfaction if they said that to me.


--
MikeyOz

Feedback for the manufacturers, are you one of these souls who has
second thoughts about your new purchase?...

--
rooman

I was sold a bike by a salesman who said 'Yeah, you look like you'd
fit a 60cm". Upon picking it up, I asked about the fit, and he said
'Sit on it, yeah, you can just touch the ground. Looks about right'.
That was a year and a half ago, and if I knew then what I know now...

What has that got to do with manufacturers? Nothing. If I was making
bicycles on a large scale, I would make them as uniform as possible.
As few products as is required to cover the majority of the
population. If you don't like the size, pay more and get a custom
built.

However, ifyou are paying $7k - $10k for a bike, surely you would look
at a custom job first??? I can understand those who say 'I've got
$2000 to spend, I'll get what I can and hope for the best". But for
the big $$, no one to blame but themselves.

Only my 2c.

Brendo

On Apr 17, 6:53 pm, rooman rooman.2p6...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com wrote:
Having a chat to "you know who" this morn and he said in the past month
& half, 15 different people have brought in mass produced "name" bikes
to him for correction fitting, bikes they have bought from the LBS's
around Melb. and new purchases had for about a month and all complain
"I cant ride this bike- it hurts too much!".

is it the LBS's who have no idea about fit, is it the production bikes
that are being churned out and don't deliver value/pain free riding for
hard earned bucks...

I know my physiology dictates I need a custom. BUT this surely isnt the
case for the bulk of riders OR IS IT.?

I do fits at the LBS I work at, and my observation would be that a lot
of people who buy bikes do not buy on fit, they buy on wank factor and
perceived value, and a cursory approach to fit at best (it's a 56 ...
that'll do). That said, JK's sample is skewed, he only sees the
people who have a problem, as indeed do I when I get riders who come
to see us for fits. (I'm not trying to compare myself to JK, I'm but a
novice in this arena).

Your statement re 'the bulk of riders' is very much open to
interpretation. What is your sample? Are you talking racers?
Weekend warriors? 45 year old men trying to get fit on a bike
designed for a 25-32 y/o professional cyclist? They're all vastly
different, and there's bikes that are more appropriate for different
body types than others. Obvious, no? Who puts a 50 y/o with a history
of lower back and neck pain on a racing geometry bike, for example?
Someone who either wants a sale, or is satisfying a customer's demands
for a particular bike. People want things that aren't necessarily
right for them, and JK, SH etc sometimes get to try and fix the
problems after the fact, sometimes not.

I know Cannondale and Trek make 'relaxed' bikes (Synapse, Pilot) but
they're very hard to sell because they're perceived as 'comfort road
bikes' and that's an instant turnoff. Go figure ....

I ask this in good faith as it concerns me that riders are getting
sore, with debilitating aches and pains which affect concentration and
thus safety.

The comment was made that some of these people were told by their LBS's
when they complained of sore backs and necks and hands - "You are
supposed to get sore when you ride a bike, its normal!!!)...sheesh

The value for money for mass produced bikes arguments I've heard, but
here we are talking about not just the lower priced offerings in the
market, but the "so-called" top end things, . These are $8-10,000+
bikes, these bikes just dont cut it either and the owners are saying to
"you know who", 'I want a new frame, can we use use the running gear and
salvage something from all this?'. so effectively they are tossing a
piece of carbon or design marvel away that is around 60-70% or more of
their original purchase outlay.

This big-budget market is the worst one for buying on wank, not fit
and performance. There's not a $8k+ bike made that's designed for
anyone who isn't a professional in terms of physiology. So, anyone
buying one of them is buying a bike designed for Lance Armstrong, Ivan
Basso, Tom Boonen etc, but chances are, they're not the same body.
There's also not an $8k bike made that's not way into diminished
returns, but is very high on cafe ****** points. Ride, BA etc crap on
about 'respect from the peloton' when you ride some swank frame,
respect comes from fitness, form and road skills, but that's not what
you read in the rags.


I'm sure this isnt confined to Melb. If we ask the other bike fitters
around the traps across Aus. (or the world, and there arnt too many,but
enough) will they too have the same experience?.

This is not a push for any particular approach other than ,I hope,
manufacturers and LBS's can produce/sell bikes with strict guidlines of
safety first , comfort, no pain and no long term injury potential from
bad fit, before greedy profit taking from mass assembly & sly
marketing.

I think to a certain extent a lot of buyers are their own worst
enemies, and pushing the blame onto LBS's is a little bit of an easy
target. LBS's sell what sells, at the end of the day, or they go
broke, and so do manufacturers.


In this last decade there has been "mysterious" gradual move away from
the classic design of relaxed larger frames to more smaller, compact
frames , with upright forward seating positions and less relaxed
angles. This has no doubt reduced production costs and maximised
profit, It has also dictated that bikes are less suitable for the bulk
of the market IMHO.

That's (I think) because the market for road bikes is very much 'race
driven' and as such, those bikes less suitable for the rest of us are
out there, because that's what wins the Tour etc.

The emphasis on lightness too has added to this, so a smaller size
offering is a nice way of saying to a bigger rider, you can get up
hills easier- not . "lose that gut and the excess 15kgs you have".

I see many riders on the road on "little"bikes, that look very
uncomfortable ( and probably are)...

discussion...anyone...anyone
it takes guts to admit your new purchase you have always dreamed about
doesnt cut the mustard...so let us know...is there a case here?

My bike fits me like a glove, and it's off the shelf (I'm lucky, I
guess ... or maybe I'm typical?), and a good LBS *should* be able to
recommend the right bike to a potential rider, but that's difficult
when almost everyone shops on price and groupset, not fit and
function. Who's fault is this?

Feedback for the manufacturers, are you one of these souls who has
second thoughts about your new purchase?...

If I had any of my bikes stolen tonight, I'd get the same ones
tomorrow (except maybe the MTB ).

In aus.bicycle on Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:53:17 +1000
rooman wrote:
The comment was made that some of these people were told by their LBS's
when they complained of sore backs and necks and hands - "You are
supposed to get sore when you ride a bike, its normal!!!)...sheesh

It's the mantra of the 'bent rider of course, "No pain!". But I
didn't think uprights were painful for small amounts of time...

While anything that gets more people on 'bents can't be bad, I suspect
a badly fitting upright will just get them off bikes, not onto 'bents.


Zebee
- Who keeps thinking about buying a Bacchetta Cafe just to tempt
people who don't ride bicycles

Just a counter-point. When I got back into riding a few years ago, I
went to you-know-who for a fitting before I bought a road bike, thinking
I'd go custom if I *really* needed to.

I got my money's worth in entertainment value -- the switching back and
forth between hard sell and condescension was pretty impressive. But
after I declined to buy the third frame he offered me from floor stock
("We can make this fit"), it was pretty obvious I didn't need anything
custom.

So I bought a new bike (on a tight budget) and set it up to the
specifications (as far as they went). I tried various tweaks, but I
started to believe I was never going to be able to avoid knee pain.

In desperation, I decided to abandon you-know-who's specs altogether and
set it up a bit more like the bikes of those I rode with. The seat came
forward a long way, the bars went down a bit -- and within a couple of
weeks the relief was simply amazing.

So yeah, maybe there is something rotten...

--
Shane Stanley

Shane Stanley Wrote:
Just a counter-point. When I got back into riding a few years ago, I
went to you-know-who for a fitting before I bought a road bike,
thinking
I'd go custom if I *really* needed to.

I got my money's worth in entertainment value -- the switching back and
forth between hard sell and condescension was pretty impressive. But
after I declined to buy the third frame he offered me from floor stock
("We can make this fit"), it was pretty obvious I didn't need anything
custom.

So I bought a new bike (on a tight budget) and set it up to the
specifications (as far as they went). I tried various tweaks, but I
started to believe I was never going to be able to avoid knee pain.

In desperation, I decided to abandon you-know-who's specs altogether
and
set it up a bit more like the bikes of those I rode with. The seat came
forward a long way, the bars went down a bit -- and within a couple of
weeks the relief was simply amazing.

So yeah, maybe there is something rotten...

--
Shane Stanley
Whats really rotten is bikeshops charging 150 odd bucks on top of the
price of the bike to fit you to it. I thought that was included in
buying a bike?


--
byron27

Bleve Wrote:
On Apr 17, 6:53 pm, rooman rooman.2p6...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com wrote:
Having a chat to "you know who" this morn and he said in the past
month
& half, 15 different people have brought in mass produced "name"
bikes
to him for correction fitting, bikes they have bought from the LBS's
around Melb. and new purchases had for about a month and all complain
"I cant ride this bike- it hurts too much!".

is it the LBS's who have no idea about fit, is it the production
bikes
that are being churned out and don't deliver value/pain free riding
for
hard earned bucks...

I know my physiology dictates I need a custom. BUT this surely isnt
the
case for the bulk of riders OR IS IT.?

I do fits at the LBS I work at, and my observation would be that a lot
of people who buy bikes do not buy on fit, they buy on wank factor and
perceived value, and a cursory approach to fit at best (it's a 56 ...
that'll do). That said, JK's sample is skewed, he only sees the
people who have a problem, as indeed do I when I get riders who come
to see us for fits. (I'm not trying to compare myself to JK, I'm but a
novice in this arena).

Your statement re 'the bulk of riders' is very much open to
interpretation. What is your sample? Are you talking racers?
Weekend warriors? 45 year old men trying to get fit on a bike
designed for a 25-32 y/o professional cyclist? They're all vastly
different, and there's bikes that are more appropriate for different
body types than others. Obvious, no? Who puts a 50 y/o with a history
of lower back and neck pain on a racing geometry bike, for example?
Someone who either wants a sale, or is satisfying a customer's demands
for a particular bike. People want things that aren't necessarily
right for them, and JK, SH etc sometimes get to try and fix the
problems after the fact, sometimes not.

I know Cannondale and Trek make 'relaxed' bikes (Synapse, Pilot) but
they're very hard to sell because they're perceived as 'comfort road
bikes' and that's an instant turnoff. Go figure ....

I ask this in good faith as it concerns me that riders are getting
sore, with debilitating aches and pains which affect concentration
and
thus safety.

The comment was made that some of these people were told by their
LBS's
when they complained of sore backs and necks and hands - "You are
supposed to get sore when you ride a bike, its normal!!!)...sheesh

The value for money for mass produced bikes arguments I've heard, but
here we are talking about not just the lower priced offerings in the
market, but the "so-called" top end things, . These are $8-10,000+
bikes, these bikes just dont cut it either and the owners are saying
to
"you know who", 'I want a new frame, can we use use the running gear
and
salvage something from all this?'. so effectively they are tossing a
piece of carbon or design marvel away that is around 60-70% or more
of
their original purchase outlay.

This big-budget market is the worst one for buying on wank, not fit
and performance. There's not a $8k+ bike made that's designed for
anyone who isn't a professional in terms of physiology. So, anyone
buying one of them is buying a bike designed for Lance Armstrong, Ivan
Basso, Tom Boonen etc, but chances are, they're not the same body.
There's also not an $8k bike made that's not way into diminished
returns, but is very high on cafe ****** points. Ride, BA etc crap on
about 'respect from the peloton' when you ride some swank frame,
respect comes from fitness, form and road skills, but that's not what
you read in the rags.


I'm sure this isnt confined to Melb. If we ask the other bike fitters
around the traps across Aus. (or the world, and there arnt too
many,but
enough) will they too have the same experience?.

This is not a push for any particular approach other than ,I hope,
manufacturers and LBS's can produce/sell bikes with strict guidlines
of
safety first , comfort, no pain and no long term injury potential
from
bad fit, before greedy profit taking from mass assembly & sly
marketing.

I think to a certain extent a lot of buyers are their own worst
enemies, and pushing the blame onto LBS's is a little bit of an easy
target. LBS's sell what sells, at the end of the day, or they go
broke, and so do manufacturers.


In this last decade there has been "mysterious" gradual move away
from
the classic design of relaxed larger frames to more smaller, compact
frames , with upright forward seating positions and less relaxed
angles. This has no doubt reduced production costs and maximised
profit, It has also dictated that bikes are less suitable for the
bulk
of the market IMHO.

That's (I think) because the market for road bikes is very much 'race
driven' and as such, those bikes less suitable for the rest of us are
out there, because that's what wins the Tour etc.

The emphasis on lightness too has added to this, so a smaller size
offering is a nice way of saying to a bigger rider, you can get up
hills easier- not . "lose that gut and the excess 15kgs you have".

I see many riders on the road on "little"bikes, that look very
uncomfortable ( and probably are)...

discussion...anyone...anyone
it takes guts to admit your new purchase you have always dreamed
about
doesnt cut the mustard...so let us know...is there a case here?

My bike fits me like a glove, and it's off the shelf (I'm lucky, I
guess ... or maybe I'm typical?), and a good LBS *should* be able to
recommend the right bike to a potential rider, but that's difficult
when almost everyone shops on price and groupset, not fit and
function. Who's fault is this?

Feedback for the manufacturers, are you one of these souls who has
second thoughts about your new purchase?...

If I had any of my bikes stolen tonight, I'd get the same ones
tomorrow (except maybe the MTB ).
now we have a discussion...

good points Carl, and in the main I agree with you, especially on the
retail limitations for LBSs and I'm sure those who do bike fits are
commercially happy with the state of things in one sense because it
delivers a livelyhood on an ongoing basis.

I am sure pretty much the sample at JK , SH etal is the everyday rider
in the main, the Weekend cruisers , the Beach Road warrior type who
want to ride with their freinds, however, some of them I know
personally and they are hardened riders from way back who thought they
would take the plunge and get the café glitz bike...and came unstuck.

I think JK's last cohort number was over 15,500 and SH is up there too.

The people we speak of do realise they are getting sore, they have
issues that relate to maintaining concentration and hence safety on the
bike. That is my primary concern here, (and JK's comment to me as well)
and to get to delve into the why and wherefore and see, to look for the
common denominator( which may be at the end of the day "human frailty")

It seems several aspects are at play, some of which a .


- The move to the "racer" type end-design that "sells", but may not
fit.
- The LBS limitation on "stock" to offer.
- The LBS potential for not resolving with the buyer the size and
performance needs of the rider/bike equation.
- The buyer's "wank" value ascribed to the item on the wish list
versus reality
- Inexperience or ego across the board.
- Buying second hand bikes that will never fit
- Deception in the mix by some makers or sellers
- buyers not following : caveat emptor :

add to this list by all means

(By the way I will ask JK about Shane Stanley and see what the
perspective is about his claim to seek some balance. If it is
entertaining and/or revealing I will publish.)

Meantime , any more factors we've missed?


--
rooman

On Apr 18, 7:44 am, byron27 byron27.2p7...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com wrote:
Shane Stanley Wrote:

Just a counter-point. When I got back into riding a few years ago, I
went to you-know-who for a fitting before I bought a road bike,
thinking
I'd go custom if I *really* needed to.

I got my money's worth in entertainment value -- the switching back and
forth between hard sell and condescension was pretty impressive. But
after I declined to buy the third frame he offered me from floor stock
("We can make this fit"), it was pretty obvious I didn't need anything
custom.

So I bought a new bike (on a tight budget) and set it up to the
specifications (as far as they went). I tried various tweaks, but I
started to believe I was never going to be able to avoid knee pain.

In desperation, I decided to abandon you-know-who's specs altogether
and
set it up a bit more like the bikes of those I rode with. The seat came
forward a long way, the bars went down a bit -- and within a couple of
weeks the relief was simply amazing.

So yeah, maybe there is something rotten...

--
Shane Stanley

Whats really rotten is bikeshops charging 150 odd bucks on top of the
price of the bike to fit you to it. I thought that was included in
buying a bike?

The LBS I work at charges $65 for a fit plus parts required. If we
built that time into the price of bikes, we'd sell a lot less. It
generally takes between 45 minutes to 2 hours for me to do a fit on a
rider, and sometimes it involves multiple visits.

Shops exist to make their owners a living (which includes JK etc ...
they have a vested interest in saying that off the shelf bikes don't
fit, remember, that's how they make a living). Anything they can
charge for, they will. And, it's bloody hard to sell roadbikes!