Is there something rotten in the world of mass produced bicycles?

In article ,
rooman wrote:

(By the way I will ask JK about Shane Stanley and see what the
perspective is about his claim to seek some balance. If it is
entertaining and/or revealing I will publish.)

Please do, and then I can tell you the rest of the story. It *is*
entertaining, in an odd sort of way. Ask him if he keeps a pump in his
shop.

Or drop me a line and I'll buy you a coffee and tell you the whole story
in person -- I'm only about a mile from his shop these days, and I
gather you live locally too.

--
Shane Stanley

In article ,
byron27 wrote:

Whats really rotten is bikeshops charging 150 odd bucks on top of the
price of the bike to fit you to it. I thought that was included in
buying a bike?

As long as they say so up-front, I have no problem with that. In fact, I
really like the idea of paying for a decent fitting service that's
independent of any sales push (as it should be if you are paying).
Finding it is another question.

--
Shane Stanley

"rooman" wrote in message
...

Having a chat to "you know who" this morn and he said in the past month
& half, 15 different people have brought in mass produced "name" bikes
to him for correction fitting, bikes they have bought from the LBS's
around Melb. and new purchases had for about a month and all complain
"I cant ride this bike- it hurts too much!".

is it the LBS's who have no idea about fit, is it the production bikes
that are being churned out and don't deliver value/pain free riding for
hard earned bucks...

I know my physiology dictates I need a custom. BUT this surely isnt the
case for the bulk of riders OR IS IT.?

I ask this in good faith as it concerns me that riders are getting
sore, with debilitating aches and pains which affect concentration and
thus safety.

The comment was made that some of these people were told by their LBS's
when they complained of sore backs and necks and hands - "You are
supposed to get sore when you ride a bike, its normal!!!)...sheesh

The value for money for mass produced bikes arguments I've heard, but
here we are talking about not just the lower priced offerings in the
market, but the "so-called" top end things, . These are $8-10,000+
bikes, these bikes just dont cut it either and the owners are saying to
"you know who", 'I want a new frame, can we use use the running gear and
salvage something from all this?'. so effectively they are tossing a
piece of carbon or design marvel away that is around 60-70% or more of
their original purchase outlay.

I'm sure this isnt confined to Melb. If we ask the other bike fitters
around the traps across Aus. (or the world, and there arnt too many,but
enough) will they too have the same experience?.

This is not a push for any particular approach other than ,I hope,
manufacturers and LBS's can produce/sell bikes with strict guidlines of
safety first , comfort, no pain and no long term injury potential from
bad fit, before greedy profit taking from mass assembly & sly
marketing.

In this last decade there has been "mysterious" gradual move away from
the classic design of relaxed larger frames to more smaller, compact
frames , with upright forward seating positions and less relaxed
angles. This has no doubt reduced production costs and maximised
profit, It has also dictated that bikes are less suitable for the bulk
of the market IMHO.
The emphasis on lightness too has added to this, so a smaller size
offering is a nice way of saying to a bigger rider, you can get up
hills easier- not . "lose that gut and the excess 15kgs you have".

I see many riders on the road on "little"bikes, that look very
uncomfortable ( and probably are)...

discussion...anyone...anyone
it takes guts to admit your new purchase you have always dreamed about
doesnt cut the mustard...so let us know...is there a case here?

Feedback for the manufacturers, are you one of these souls who has
second thoughts about your new purchase?...


--
rooman

I get a lot of people in my shop complaining about pain when they ride.
Often it's knee pain (bum pain is expected by newbies). There are at least
two bike shops that are selling bikes to newbies with the advice that the
right sized bike is one that they can put both feet on the ground when
sitting on the seat. Most of the time simply adjusting the seat height gives
some relief, but I often see the same people a few weeks later complaining
about being cramped up because the bike's too short. I always advise them
that they will get to that point, so it's no surprise when they come back
for a new stem. Again, I have to advise them that fiddling the fit like that
is pretty well a bodgie fix - fact is that the bike is too small and they'll
need to get another at a certain level of cycling. Quite a few have, some
are content to stay at pootle pace and the fiddled bike is sufficient for
them.

I can't understand the ethics of flogging a bike that fits so badly
(assuming the seller actually knows about bike fit). If the seller is
unaware, what are they doing selling bikes??

Although it's good for my business from a sales point of view, it offends my
moral sense that so many people are being ripped off either through
ignorance or the desire for a fast buck. It's gaining me more custom, but
why do other shops shoot themselves in the foot like that?

me

The thing about this argument is though, that is not really the right
place for this argument, I mean seriously who here on these forums
bought their bike because it was for "w@nk" factor down at the local
coffee shop. I don't even drink coffee for f@cks sake, let alone
attend the coffee shop after a ride.

It is always a case of you get what you pay for and if you go for an
off the shelf bike you are probably going to be alright, but there are
always going to be the few exceptions. And then you are going to have
the "shops" who will claim to be able to magically fit you onto your
bike if you don't quite fit, or then say, well we can't fit you
properly on this one, ever thought of a custom bike *cha ching* ?
There is always someone out there in every type of business happy to
take your money from you in 1 way or another. LBS are not different to
anyone else, there are the standout shops who have good reputations that
they have becuase of the people in the shop and I have found when staff
turnover happens the repuatation of a shop can change dramatically one
way or the other.


--
MikeyOz

On Apr 17, 10:21 pm, Zebee Johnstone wrote:
In aus.bicycle on Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:53:17 +1000

rooman wrote:
The comment was made that some of these people were told by their LBS's
when they complained of sore backs and necks and hands - "You are
supposed to get sore when you ride a bike, its normal!!!)...sheesh

It's the mantra of the 'bent rider of course, "No pain!".


Which is bull****. I've done a few hours in/on a 'bent, and been
unable to walk for a day afterwards.
I've done 2 Melbourne to Warrnabools and been fine afterwards, but 90
mins in a racing 'bent and I was a cripple.
They are different, but they are not perfect. For some people,
they're a good option, but they are not for everyone.

In aus.bicycle on 17 Apr 2007 18:07:29 -0700
Bleve wrote:
On Apr 17, 10:21 pm, Zebee Johnstone wrote:
In aus.bicycle on Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:53:17 +1000

rooman wrote:
The comment was made that some of these people were told by their LBS's
when they complained of sore backs and necks and hands - "You are
supposed to get sore when you ride a bike, its normal!!!)...sheesh

It's the mantra of the 'bent rider of course, "No pain!".


Which is bull****. I've done a few hours in/on a 'bent, and been
unable to walk for a day afterwards.

*grin* racing bikes that you do lots of work on occasionally are a
bugger aren't they!

Why you'd think that a runner who gets on a racing upright and does a
few hours riding and hurts is a really good reason that no one should
ride uprights....

Zebee

Shane Stanley Wrote:
In article ,
rooman wrote:

(By the way I will ask JK about Shane Stanley and see what the
perspective is about his claim to seek some balance. If it is
entertaining and/or revealing I will publish.)

Please do, and then I can tell you the rest of the story. It *is*
entertaining, in an odd sort of way. Ask him if he keeps a pump in his
shop.

Or drop me a line and I'll buy you a coffee and tell you the whole
story
in person -- I'm only about a mile from his shop these days, and I
gather you live locally too.

--
Shane StanleyShane , I spoke to JK.

Seems he never gave you a full bike-fit, you came in for a measure,
which is not a bike-fit ( which is a start to establishing tube
dimensions and angles for riding aspirations and physiology and is only
part of the bike fit equation)... and it was incomplete as your bar
height and seat position couldnt be determined at that time. He never
sold you a bike, and if you did get a bike from some where else you
didnt bring it in for a "fit", at which time your bar height and seat
position would have been established.

So not sure what you see as "rotten", or how it fits in context here
other than you two didnt see eye to eye on things ( and your budget
wouldnt allow it -you admit that was "tight") ... were you just tire
kicking then...and now nitpicking for the sake of it?

He still has your measures and would be happy to talk to you about
whatever you believe is an issue and your attempts to first "fit"
yourself and then correct your own fit when you couldnt do it.

No doubting JK is a character and in his own inimitable way doesnt see
eye to eye with some folk, we all have that experIEnce as we go through
life.... it makes things interesting.


--
rooman

On Apr 18, 12:23 pm, Zebee Johnstone wrote:
In aus.bicycle on 17 Apr 2007 18:07:29 -0700

Bleve wrote:
On Apr 17, 10:21 pm, Zebee Johnstone wrote:
In aus.bicycle on Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:53:17 +1000

rooman wrote:
The comment was made that some of these people were told by their LBS's
when they complained of sore backs and necks and hands - "You are
supposed to get sore when you ride a bike, its normal!!!)...sheesh

It's the mantra of the 'bent rider of course, "No pain!".

Which is bull****. I've done a few hours in/on a 'bent, and been
unable to walk for a day afterwards.

*grin* racing bikes that you do lots of work on occasionally are a
bugger aren't they!

Why you'd think that a runner who gets on a racing upright and does a
few hours riding and hurts is a really good reason that no one should
ride uprights....

Read what I wrote again, Zebee. They are *not* 'no pain'. They are a
solution for some people, but not everyone. They may suit *you*, and
that's good, but they are not for everyone and they are not 'no pain'
for everyone.

My personal experience of riding one for ~1:15 at an average of around
200 watts (bugger-all) was very painful. It certainly didn't work for
me.

In aus.bicycle on 18 Apr 2007 00:17:42 -0700
Bleve wrote:

Read what I wrote again, Zebee. They are *not* 'no pain'. They are a
solution for some people, but not everyone. They may suit *you*, and
that's good, but they are not for everyone and they are not 'no pain'
for everyone.

I know they aren't no pain, and I know they aren't for everyone.

But hey, light hearted raillery ain't your thing?

Zebee

On 2007-04-17, Plodder (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
I can't understand the ethics of flogging a bike that fits so badly

Ethics doesn't come into it. Only ignorance -- too many of them, not
enough of us.

(assuming the seller actually knows about bike fit).

Of course they don't. Not too many people do. I found myself giving
bike fit advice to a few colleagues in Melbourne[1] -- I was doing at
least as well as the non-bike shops they bought off, because I have
read a couple of articles about bike fit -- a couple of more articles
than them.

If the seller is
unaware, what are they doing selling bikes??

Making money.

You can make money without knowing every detail of the field you are
selling in, as long as your customers are at least as ignorant as
you.


[1] Huzzah, and I got a local off his clunker "dual" suspension.

--
TimC
Shame on you! Don't you love her? Girls don't want Kmart specials, they
want carbon - either as diamonds or as CF bikes! -- Tamyka in aus.bicycle