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Promoter's Lament -- from Hamilton world's site
"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in message ...
"Rik Van Diesel" wrote in message m... (John Forrest Tomlinson) wrote in message . com... http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/4416.0.html I concur, that is good stuff. Look on the bright side - the Self-Absorbed Masters Fattie is at least one step above the Living-vicariously-through-their-kid Little League Parent. I am not positive on that. Something odd about a parent who doesn't take their kid to little league because they have to get up and train or race for or in the big cat 123 master championship. RVD |
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Promoter's Lament -- from Hamilton world's site
"Online registration simply proved too difficult for some to
comprehend. The night before the race, we had about five guys show up with transaction reports that had been automatically sent to them." I laugh my ass off when I hear promoters complain how difficult it is when riders don't register in advance. I still have a start list, PRINTED and SOLD to spectators after all riders had registered "on-site", for the 1992 East Flanders Provincial Amateur Road Championships. From rider number 1 (Danny Annaert) to number 461 (Patrick Verhertstraten), each riders name and hometown are listed along with sponsors from around the Province. I bought this start list for about a buck after the race had been on for about 20 minutes. Did I, or any of the serious spectators, care that it was one color? Although I agree almost entirely with the complaints and analysis about masters currently adversely affecting the sport, promoters should challenge themselves to search for reasonable sponsorship, charge low, affordable entry fees (if any at all) and register exclusively "on-site". That is before they write about riders not being "professional". Eric Hollenbeck (No I'm not Belgian, thats why I was a spectator :-) |
#3
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Promoter's Lament -- from Hamilton world's site
Eric Hollenbeck wrote:
"Online registration simply proved too difficult for some to comprehend. The night before the race, we had about five guys show up with transaction reports that had been automatically sent to them." I laugh my ass off when I hear promoters complain how difficult it is when riders don't register in advance. I still have a start list, PRINTED and SOLD to spectators after all riders had registered "on-site", for the 1992 East Flanders Provincial Amateur Road Championships. From rider number 1 (Danny Annaert) to number 461 (Patrick Verhertstraten), each riders name and hometown are listed along with sponsors from around the Province. I bought this start list for about a buck after the race had been on for about 20 minutes. Did I, or any of the serious spectators, care that it was one color? Although I agree almost entirely with the complaints and analysis about masters currently adversely affecting the sport, promoters should challenge themselves to search for reasonable sponsorship, charge low, affordable entry fees (if any at all) and register exclusively "on-site". That is before they write about riders not being "professional". Never organized a race, have you? Never hit on someone for sponsorship money for a race, have you? Never even been within 50 kilometers of a race organization meeting, have you? Never compiled a race budget, have you? Never worked at a registration table, have you? I will bet that the Belgians were working from a license database with all the information you had on that race program and only had to record who had actually shown up in order to generate the start list. Which is a good idea, that is for sure. And an illustration of one of the many ways in which Belgian race organization is so much better than what we get here in North America. But until YOU have figured out how to get enough sponsorship money to get away with charging low (if at all) entry fees, and YOU have tried to round up enough volunteer labor to do that amount of race day entry, and YOU have secured finances such that you can tell the 50 guys that showed up with illegible entry forms 5 minutes before the scheduled start time to buzz off... then YOU don't know what you are talking about. Bob Schwartz |
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Promoter's Lament -- from Hamilton world's site
"Bob Schwartz" wrote in message ... Eric Hollenbeck wrote: "Online registration simply proved too difficult for some to comprehend. The night before the race, we had about five guys show up with transaction reports that had been automatically sent to them." I laugh my ass off when I hear promoters complain how difficult it is when riders don't register in advance. I still have a start list, PRINTED and SOLD to spectators after all riders had registered "on-site", for the 1992 East Flanders Provincial Amateur Road Championships. From rider number 1 (Danny Annaert) to number 461 (Patrick Verhertstraten), each riders name and hometown are listed along with sponsors from around the Province. I bought this start list for about a buck after the race had been on for about 20 minutes. Did I, or any of the serious spectators, care that it was one color? Although I agree almost entirely with the complaints and analysis about masters currently adversely affecting the sport, promoters should challenge themselves to search for reasonable sponsorship, charge low, affordable entry fees (if any at all) and register exclusively "on-site". That is before they write about riders not being "professional". Never organized a race, have you? Never hit on someone for sponsorship money for a race, have you? Never even been within 50 kilometers of a race organization meeting, have you? Never compiled a race budget, have you? Never worked at a registration table, have you? snip I wouldn't bet on any of that - Hollenbeck's been around for awhile. |
#6
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Promoter's Lament -- from Hamilton world's site
"I was appalled by the lack of organization, planning and
professionalism by many of the teams attending our national championship. Some riders and team managers apparently have no respect for the sport." Hmmmmmmmmmm. Well if the Organizers had some choice comments about the squads at the Canadian Nationals, I'm waiting for the choice comments the squads have about the organizers when they see the course. http://www.hamilton2003.com/Hamilton2003Maps/home.html |
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Promoter's Lament -- from Hamilton world's site
"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in message t...
"Bob Schwartz" wrote in message ... Eric Hollenbeck wrote: "Online registration simply proved too difficult for some to comprehend. The night before the race, we had about five guys show up with transaction reports that had been automatically sent to them." I laugh my ass off when I hear promoters complain how difficult it is when riders don't register in advance. I still have a start list, PRINTED and SOLD to spectators after all riders had registered "on-site", for the 1992 East Flanders Provincial Amateur Road Championships. From rider number 1 (Danny Annaert) to number 461 (Patrick Verhertstraten), each riders name and hometown are listed along with sponsors from around the Province. I bought this start list for about a buck after the race had been on for about 20 minutes. Did I, or any of the serious spectators, care that it was one color? Although I agree almost entirely with the complaints and analysis about masters currently adversely affecting the sport, promoters should challenge themselves to search for reasonable sponsorship, charge low, affordable entry fees (if any at all) and register exclusively "on-site". That is before they write about riders not being "professional". Never organized a race, have you? Never hit on someone for sponsorship money for a race, have you? Never even been within 50 kilometers of a race organization meeting, have you? Never compiled a race budget, have you? Never worked at a registration table, have you? I wouldn't bet on any of that - Hollenbeck's been around for awhile. The race in question is a national championship run under UCI rules, the race requires a startlist the day before and riders are required to register as a team for the elite race. Plus pre-registration gives an organizer some security and an idea of numbers to handle logistics (like parking, officials, neutral support - did you even think of these things ?). If 461 riders did ride the East Flanders champs, if it took a minute to register each one, it would take over 7 man hours. Did someone type in 461 names and hometowns ? Obviously they have the money or personnel or system to pull it off, none of that exists here. Plus, I'm guessing they didn't have to process fees in Flanders, but this isn't Belgium. -Amit |
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Promoter's Lament -- from Hamilton world's site
Bob Schwartz wrote in message ...
Eric Hollenbeck wrote: "Online registration simply proved too difficult for some to comprehend. The night before the race, we had about five guys show up with transaction reports that had been automatically sent to them." I laugh my ass off when I hear promoters complain how difficult it is when riders don't register in advance. Never organized a race, have you? Never hit on someone for sponsorship money for a race, have you? Never even been within 50 kilometers of a race organization meeting, have you? Never compiled a race budget, have you? Never worked at a registration table, have you? I have done all these things... More than once. Now that we have gotten the pleasantries out of the way, what is soooo impossible about what I suggest? I'll be the first to admit it sounds utopian but I've seen it work and the main reason it hasn't here is that most grass roots race promoters (and local racing associations) who make an effort to streamline and optimize race organization eventually want a piece of the pie. That works fine for "pro" racing where the athletes are compensated but for grass roots racing I can't help but wonder what happened to the $5-$7 entry fees of old. Bob, you have been around longer than me, tell us how much you paid for race entry back in "the day".... OK..now, HOW did THEY possibly do it? I will bet that the Belgians were working from a license database with all the information you had on that race program and only had to record who had actually shown up in order to generate the start list. Which is a good idea, that is for sure. I never saw a single computer when I signed in at more than 200 races there. They had someone typing and someone (No ****) using one of those old hand crank presses.. But until YOU have figured out how to get enough sponsorship money to get away with charging low (if at all) entry fees, and YOU have tried to round up enough volunteer labor to do that amount of race day entry, and YOU have secured finances such that you can tell the 50 guys that showed up with illegible entry forms 5 minutes before the scheduled start time to buzz off... 1. Find a place that serves affordable food and (alcohol) drinks outdoors and is open in the afternoon 2. Tell them you want to have A (Yep just one , not 15 in a day) bike race which starts and finishes in front of their establishment which only will last 2-3 hours on a afternoon. 3. Tell them if they give you $1000 you will guarantee a return (not to mention exposure and a chance to enhance the community) 4. Have the race pass the restaurant a minimum 10 times. 5. Have the sign-in and awards at the restaurant. 6. Find another restaurant in another community and start at step 2. Sure you might not score with the first café… whoops, I mean restaurant, you approach but eventually you will. Oh no, I've let the long lost secret out of the bag. Eric |
#9
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Promoter's Lament -- from Hamilton world's site
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#10
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Promoter's Lament -- from Hamilton world's site
Eric Hollenbeck wrote:
Bob Schwartz wrote in message ... Never organized a race, have you? Never hit on someone for sponsorship money for a race, have you? Never even been within 50 kilometers of a race organization meeting, have you? Never compiled a race budget, have you? Never worked at a registration table, have you? I have done all these things... More than once. So you have, my agologies. Now that we have gotten the pleasantries out of the way, what is soooo impossible about what I suggest? I'll be the first to admit it sounds utopian but I've seen it work and the main reason it hasn't here is that most grass roots race promoters (and local racing associations) who make an effort to streamline and optimize race organization eventually want a piece of the pie. That works fine for "pro" racing where the athletes are compensated but for grass roots racing I can't help but wonder what happened to the $5-$7 entry fees of old. Bob, you have been around longer than me, tell us how much you paid for race entry back in "the day".... OK..now, HOW did THEY possibly do it? When I started racing the max entry fee was $6. Actually I don't think we're that far apart in our thinking, but our perceptions of the reality of promoting races in this country are pretty different. Here is the required reading before I go on. This is a post by AHM from a couple of years ago, explaining why running women's races was costing him money. The current topic is different, but there are important points he http://groups.google.com/groups?&ie=...l.c om&rnum=1 The first race I ever promoted was in 1993. We charged $5 and made money on the race. This was only possible because I live in a place where there are more cows than people so we had no police costs of permit fees with any local unit of government. If we were somewhere where people outnumbered cows we never would have been able to pull it off. And we could never do that now, what is different is: - The insurance fee doubled - Single day licenses - I realized that not having cops was an unacceptable risk at certain intersections - The local guy that was our official quit officiating. I was able to compensate for this by getting my official's license but if the event needs more than me I have to pay someone to drive here. When I first got into race promotion I was shooting for break even. I very quickly realized this was not acceptable. I needed a lot of volunteer help to pull races off and if all I had was a sense of giving back to the sport to motivate people then people were going to be avoiding me before races. So I don't think there is any way I could charge $10 for a race and pull it off. And my expenses are much lower than those for people who live places where people outnumber cows. I suppose I could spend time I don't have hustling sponsorship. I like to think I have a grip on the promotional value of a bike race in this country. In the vast majority of cases it is nothing, and in some cases it is negative because having the bike race irritates people. But we used to hustle local businesses for $50-$100 checks in exchange for a logo on the flyer. We stopped doing this because no one have the time and it didn't seem worth it for the money we brought in. Currently our best source of sponsorship money is a guy in the club that hits up the vendors that he does business with for kickbacks. These people do not care at all about the sport or any promotional opportunity it provides. They are interested in doing business with the guy in the club. We have brought in much more money this way than we ever did based on the promotional value of a race or the club. I will bet that the Belgians were working from a license database with all the information you had on that race program and only had to record who had actually shown up in order to generate the start list. Which is a good idea, that is for sure. I never saw a single computer when I signed in at more than 200 races there. They had someone typing and someone (No ****) using one of those old hand crank presses.. Typically our club runs two races a year. One of them was this past weekend. Last night I pulled entry forms at random and checked them for ledgibility. I don't know how the Belgians did it. But there is no way I could pull it off without a huge error rate. Which is pretty much what happens. The race last weekend was a time trial and I can pick out all kinds of errors in the start list, which is just names. After every race I pull together results. After every race I sort through names and addresses on checks, internet race results, even Yahoo people search, to verify names, hometowns, and club affiliations. I flush a lot of time doing this after every race, even though I can make a ton of corrections just through knowing the rider base and people that come back every year. So I guess this is possible depending on the error rate you are comfortable with. This year we did pre-entry and a late fee for the first time with this race, using one of the online vendors (bikereg.com). I downloaded the entry list (which had no errors in names or hometowns) and put it on a CD for the timer. Who uploaded it painlessly. We had a record turnout for the race yet it went more smoothly than years past when we spent all our time before the race frantically scrambling to do what you say should be easy. My experience was such that for next year I plan on offering cheap entry only to people that enter online. People that want to go though the mail will pay more and day of registration will ante up the most. Because they make us work the hardest. But until YOU have figured out how to get enough sponsorship money to get away with charging low (if at all) entry fees, and YOU have tried to round up enough volunteer labor to do that amount of race day entry, and YOU have secured finances such that you can tell the 50 guys that showed up with illegible entry forms 5 minutes before the scheduled start time to buzz off... 1. Find a place that serves affordable food and (alcohol) drinks outdoors and is open in the afternoon 2. Tell them you want to have A (Yep just one , not 15 in a day) bike race which starts and finishes in front of their establishment which only will last 2-3 hours on a afternoon. 3. Tell them if they give you $1000 you will guarantee a return (not to mention exposure and a chance to enhance the community) 4. Have the race pass the restaurant a minimum 10 times. 5. Have the sign-in and awards at the restaurant. 6. Find another restaurant in another community and start at step 2. Sure you might not score with the first cafe whoops, I mean restaurant, you approach but eventually you will. Oh no, I've let the long lost secret out of the bag. At the risk of repeating myself, have you actually done this? Convinced someone to pay $1000 for the privilege of hosting a bike race? I know at least one case where a race was told to get lost by a restaurant owner (who was paying nothing) because driving his regular business away was costing him more than the race brought in. We've run many races hosted by local restaurants. They tolerate us only if we run the race at a time that is typically slow for them. Once I was told that I couldn't have a Saturday because they booked wedding receptions on Saturdays and, ****, let's not compare the economic impact there. Another told me I couldn't have a Sunday because they booked private parties and... well I guess both were really the same reason. A couple hundred bike racers and their friends do not have the same impact that a much smaller group has that is bent on eating and drinking with a purpose. There is no way I could have hit on either of these places for money. Stuff that works in Belgium does not work here. I am still not convinced that you have pulled off races like you've described above. Bob Schwartz |
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